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Saturday, 22 December 2012
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L. RON HUBBARD THE MAN THAT I KNEW

By DENNIS STEVENS

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This tape was recorded by Dennis Stevens on request of Antony Phillips on the 24th of April 1994. Dennis is the author of “The Reduction Of the Mind” (TROM) and Antony is the founder of the International Viewpoints Group and its associated internet forums and the Ivy magazine.

Note that:

Names and place names may not be spelled correctly.
False starts, repetitions, background noise, umms, ahhs, stuttering and excessively long silent periods have been removed and the signal strength amplified where necessary.
Editor’s notes are inserted in brackets [ ]. Every effort was made not to delete contributory text while allowing the coherent flow of the text to continue. Dennis frequently interrupted himself to add thoughts in mid sentence. Such additions were inserted –as shown here–.
The original tape was one hour and fifteen minutes long and the edited tape is just longer than one hour.
***


This is the twenty fourth of April 1994.


My name is Dennis Stevens and I’m cutting this tape for Antony Phillips and the subject matter of the tape, as requested by Antony, is L. Ron Hubbard the man that I knew.


My personal contact with Ron Hubbard stretch from a period from September 1952 through to 1955 –late 1955– early 1956 actually. Then there was a break when we went to Australia. There was no contact then for a period until 1962 when I did the Saint Hill Briefing Course.


There was of course a comm. line to Ron that continued on and off over the years, even when I was in Sidney. I had a comm. line working with the Org, working with the field –I always did have a comm. line to Ron–. I could always write to him and get a personal reply from him at any time. And [of]course while I was in the Org I had a direct comm. line to the Old Man.


I always refer to him as the Old Man because I always knew him as the Old Man. ‘Ts only in later years that I stopped calling him the Old Man and started calling him Ron Hubbard –affectionately like many staff members –ex-staff members– I know Ron as the Old Man.


There is no personal or writ[ten] comm. with Ron after 1965. The records gives you some idea of –of the period involved. The most intimate contact with Ron Hubbard was in the period 1952 to 19 –to late 1955. And that is the period that Antony has asked me to concentrate on because evidently there is some scarcity of people around who commented on their personal contact with Ron during this period. All the articles and so forth that appeared on contact with Ron had been later than 1955. Well I –I hope to be able to remedy that scarcity.


It’s necessary for me to give a brief resumé of my Scientology history to understand how I did actually get into contact with him.


My first contact with Dianetics was through the Astounding Science Fiction magazine article I had a subscription to. The Astounding Science Fiction magazine in 1950. A series appeared in their magazine in May 1950 right after the book Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health and it was air freighted over and I started using it –I started co-auditing in September 1950.
Subsequently we found out that my co-auditor and I were the second co-auditing team to start up in Britain. So I go a long way back –I go a long way back in England’s Dianetics and Scientology.


I subsequently joined the Wishlow, North West London Dianetics group run by George Wishlow. I became group secretary and continued on as a group auditor and group secretary through 1950 –late 1950– and also 1951 and all the way through 1952 until the first contact with Ron Hubbard appears in September 1952.


And just to come up to what was occurring at that time the news came through that Ron Hubbard would be coming through to London in September 1952. George Wishlow, the head of the group, he got that word over from America.


Prior to that the only Dianeticits or Scientologists we’d seen from America was Jack Horner. He was the only other one –the only trained one. We had a few that had come over and spoken. Their use of the subject was no more than ours, they were book auditors and so on. The only other one we’d spoken to –trained- and done an HDA course and bachelor of Scientology course was Jack Horner. He first arrived in England in 1951 and gave a congress which I attended.


But anyway that was the big news August 1952.
I’d been getting very excellent results with a preclear from Dianetics. I was mightily impressed with the subject. I didn’t know it at the time but I was a very easy running preclear. Any auditor would’ve given his back teeth to have a preclear like me. I always was an easy running preclear though I didn’t know it of course. It was only after many years of auditing tough cases that I realized the vast majority of humanity is much more difficult to audit than I am.


Anyway to move now into late August early September when he actually appeared at the Wishlow group.
______
This material, by the way –of this period- is also mentioned in the Memoirs of Dennis named Stevens which is a series of four and a half hours of the [my] Scientology memoirs –which is in the possession of Craig Crickering –he has tapes of that. So I’m duplicating here. I won’t duplicate more than I have to that I can assure you.
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My first contact with Ron Hubbard was when he strolled into … Everyone was there. We normally at our group meetings, we had about –oh, fifteen members –fifteen people will turn up– regulars and visitors, fifteen or twenty. Well that night we must have had about sixty people there in that big room of George Wishlow’s –almost literally hanging from the chandeliers.
The word that his first port of call on that Sunday evening he was going to go the whole evening to be with us at Wishlow Dianetic Group was enough.


George had been burning the telephone and got all and sundry there. Everyone who could conceivably get there was there that evening. People from the other London groups couldn’t get there because they too were holding their group meetings on that Sunday. So they couldn’t be there they had to be at their own groups. Other than that we had about sixty people there.
And the meeting progressed and suddenly there was a knock at the door.


George dashed out and opened the door and in strode this –he seems an enor –my first impression of Ron –although I’ve seen photographs of him, my first impression was his size, was his physical size. He seemed a very, very large person. ‘T was only that when I got to know him better that I realized this was a part of a mock-up that he put up (garbled) – his size. He wasn’t near as big physically as you thought he was. He was near six foot, maybe a shade under six foot in height and probably weighed about –oh- 180 pounds, something like that.
He got a lot heavier in later years. But at that time he wasn’t all that heavy. He seemed enormously large. And he walked into the room and filled the room immediately –that was the impression– with his presence. He walked into the room –everything stopped– he was immediately the center of attention.


Further my first impression of the man was his presence –was his physical presence– his startling physical presence, the size of him physically and his startling psychological presence. The size of him, psychologically, one definitely knew that there was somebody there.
He was the sort of person that –if he was in the room behind you, you’d know he was behind you and you would turn around and not be surprised to find Ron standing there. That happened to me on many occasions.


Ron Hubbard in those early days in the fifties that Ron will [be] in the Org and so forth –when he was around in the Org– I’d be talking to someone in the room and the door would be opened and suddenly I’d be aware that Ron was in the room. I’d know he was there. He’d walked in and was standing waiting, wanting to speak to me about something and he was standing patiently waiting for me to finish conversation. But I knew he was behind me. I could feel his presence. He was that sort of person. He had a[n] enormous psychological presence –Ron Hubbard did.
Anyway that particular group meeting was a milestone in my life. Because, as it turned out, my life was never the same again after that group meeting.


Ron spoke about Scientology, gave us a talk: and he talked for about three quarters of an hour and then said he’s gonna give a demonstration. He wanted a volunteer to come up.
I was mad to get my hand up but I thought well –as I was the group’s guinea pig –if anyone was gonna give a demonstration session (anyone wants to demonstrate an auditing technique ….). Well , I was always the guinea pig because I had a virtually indestructible case. I was the easiest running preclear and everyone in the group knew it. Some of the group members could be psychologically damaged by group demonstrations. But they knew that I was indestructible and that they could lead me in an engram and I will find my way out of it and no harm would come of it. I didn’t understand it at the time but it was just a state –I’m a very easy running preclear. It was almost impossible to harm me psychologically with techniques. When I looked around there was no hands going up.


Ron announced that he wanted to give an auditing demonstration of exteriorization. And maybe that’s what put everyone off of it, they [were] a bit scared of it. Not even George Wishlow got his hand up. And George was no person to not come forward when he was interested in something. But in that instant I thought “Oh well if nobody else wanted the opportunity it might not happen again” so my hand shot up. So Ron smiled at me and called me over to the stand and my life changed.


H did a technique of giving commands to my foot and receiving commands back, and turning a few energy masses white and so on –and so on. Next thing I told him that I was exteriorized and he said “good” and he moved me around the room. The tremendous perceptions that I was struck with -the weird sensation sitting there above sixty people, and I could see them all clearly below me. I was up near the ceiling where Ron had moved me. And there was Ron addressing my body. And I could see my body there and I could see Ron there. I could see the whole thing much, much clearer than I could through my eyes.


‘Ts was all happening and everyone was watching the demonstration and I was at the ceiling (chuckles). It was an incredible experience. And he moved me around and moved me out back to the road. I found that I could move through the wall and I could see through the wall. There’s all sorts of things that I can do. And he moved me around and got me comfortable and said “Do you want to come back into your body or stay outside”.

I said: “No thank you very much I’m quite happy out here”.


He Said: “Right well just – “ and got me– my eyes again [sentence fragmented].


And that ended the demonstration.


By that time it was getting up to ten o’clock and people had busses and trains to catch. It being Sunday the transport didn’t run very late at that time. And very quickly the group meeting broke up and I had to dash off to get a last bus. Getting off the bus from Auckland, I missed the last bus that connected up to my home. I had to walk a mile and a half along deserted roads to get to my house.


An incredible feeling of walking along being exterior from my body –my body was in front of me. This weird sensation of walking along and the body, in front of me, shadowing the street lights. As I walked along, suddenly as a street light appear in my visual field, on the right hand side, being shadowed by my head. It startled me for a moment –so I don’t realize what was going on and I moved further back behind my body.


The exteriorization was almost complete. It was an almost exteriorization you would get between lives as I later discovered. The exteriorization was incredibly complete. I just walked for a mile and a half down that road sitting about, oh, ten fifteen foot behind my body. I’m just moving down the road with my body there looking at the houses and I was walking in [?] my body. I was just walking along the road there. It was the most incredible experience.
Then I go into my house and went to bed –went up into the loft, nosed around from the roof and ended up, about midnight, sitting out on the lamp post in the road watching the moths fly around the lamp post.


I went to sleep. When I woke up in the morning I’ve moved –during the night– I’ve moved back into my body again (chuckle). But it saved my life. I then knew that when Ron spoke of exteriorization –talked about a thetan- that he was right. I had so much tremendous personal certainty on it, there was not a shred of doubt in my mind. And when he said then (at the group meeting) that he was gonna run a professional course, well that was where I wanted to be. I knew that what he was talking about was the goods and the one thing I wanted to be was a professional Scientologist. This was the future. This was how it was.


This enormous exteriorization ability –I was what they used to call at the time theta clear– stayed with me. It lessoned slowly but it stayed with me for a month. It had an interesting validation. I was already courting my future wife at the time.

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[Note that a fragmented sentence in which Dennis was debating with himself whether he knew and was courting his future wife at the time and words to the effect of him straightening his time track was removed at this point as being non contributory to the subject content].
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And later I was in London . She was in Battessey and we couldn’t be [together and] we were very much in love and I used to go and visit her late at night. She always knew I was there. I could [would] come in the room and there she would be laying on the bed reading. I’d go over and touch her forehead –I could see her look up. She knew I was there. The following day I’d phone or see her and she’d say “You were over last night” and I’d say “Yes I visit you”. She couldn’t do it of course she hadn’t got the ability but she always knew I was there. [A garbled sentence follows but could not be transcribed and was removed.].


So it wasn’t all in my mind there was a present time with another person who could validate the exteriorization ability that I had. The ability to be actually felt –my presence could actually be felt by another person in the present time universe– so it wasn’t all imagination. It had a practical validation there.


I had been audited by Ron Hubbard more than once all in demonstration sessions and I can say without a shadow of doubt that he was the best auditor that ever audited me. I was never audited by a better auditor than Ron. Ron was the smoothest, he was the greatest. And I’ve been audited by some very fine auditors, including Jack Horner who I rate only just slightly below Ron Hubbard as an auditor. Unfortunately they’re both dead now. Ron was the greatest as an auditor –he was the greatest auditor. He was the only auditor I ever knew who never really needed an E-Meter.


When you were in session with Ron –as a preclear– something would happen in session. Some mental scene would occur, Ron would come in and say “What’s happening?” he knew it. He’d spot it straight away.


He used to use a meter but he didn’t really need one. He knew the slightest change in the session, he was on to it. That is the mark of the truly great auditor. Ron had that ability. He was the only auditor I knew who had that ability. He could determine the slightest change in a preclear by direct perception. He could do it time and time again and it gave you an enormous feeling of confidence when you were being audited by Ron Hubbard. You felt that he was right there with you, as indeed he was. He was right there with you holding your hand as a preclear in session. You felt that there was somebody else there holding your hand (chuckle). I always got that feeling whenever Ron audited me. I never got it with any other auditor –but slightly with Jack Horner, it was very, very faint –with Ron it was strong. But I’ve never experienced it with other auditors at all. He stood head and shoulders above any other auditor I’ve ever met.


Well almost needless to say when you experience something like that from a man –he discovered the subject, he’s formulated the subject and tried it on you and it works exactly as he said and you get validation that it’s not all in imagination, that it is actually real, its working exactly the way he said it –you’re inclined to grant this man certain godlike qualities. And when you realize his personality –he had this enormous presence that I’ve already mentioned –He walked into a room, he was there. So he had a physical presence and a psychological presence. On easy running preclears Ron could make the subject –and I was an easy running preclear– Ron could make the subject work exactly the way he said it worked. He might not be able to do it on difficult (chuckle) running preclears. But he could sure as hell make it work on easy running preclears.


The effect on the subject –the effect on me was to grant an enormous beingness. To grant him almost godlike qualities. It was inevitable that it would happen and it did happen. I was awe struck by the Old Man. I won[dered] what sort of a person he was, whether he was a god, a demigod or what? That was in September 1950.


Towards middle September 1950 I started the HPA course in London. That course was person taught by Ron Hubbard. There was about fifteen of us on the course.  He used to give regular auditing demonstrations and I think about two or three times I was the subject of the course. He quickly realized –Ron did– that I was a very easy running PC and when he quickly wanted to demonstrate something he’d just say “Dennis!”, I’d just go over, he’d run it on me –demonstrate the point he wanted to ma[ke]. He too, like the group members found –he to was using the advantages of a very, very easy running preclear. A person, because of a favored case got to do things rather easily and is all we know in effect and so forth. So I had two or three auditing demonstrations from Ron during the HPA course. Each one of them there was that same presence of the master auditor there when he was auditing me.


I spoke to many other people about Ron as an auditor. Many people had been audited by Ron in demonstrations but not everyone –many of them agree that he was a tremendous auditor– But I did hear people say that they didn’t think much of –they didn’t feel that he’d done anything for them at all– they didn’t care for his style of auditing, which I found most peculiar. But each and every one of these was a tough case. It(s) quite interesting isn’t it. Obviously the person was a tough case, the auditing demonstration has not produced any positive results, the person wasn’t particularly impressed, so it reflected on the preclear’s feelings about the auditor. I did actually meet more than one person in London at that time who’ve been audited by Ron in auditing demonstrations who didn’t think he was a particularly good auditor.


After the training course –it was an eight week full time through to November 1952. By that time Ron had me organized in London and I went on staff immediately. I was the first Director of Processing [D of P] on staff. He wanted me on staff right away. I’ve completed all my course requirements , sent in my case histories, got my HPA [Hubbard Professional Auditor] and HDA [Hubbard Dianetic Auditor] certificate[s]. I graduated as close to honors as it was possible to get. Ron wanted me (chuckle), he came straight after me and wanted me as D of P in London. So I was London’s first Director of Processing.


All that time Ann and I were together. She was my future wife –Ann Walker. She was the Personal Association Secretary in London, Ann was.


From that point onwards –Mary Sue was pregnant [at] the time with her first child. Once she got over the pregnancy –given birth– and Mary Sue was available again and started to get back into social life again. Quite often Ron and Mary Sue would invite Ann and I up to dinner in the evening socially. We always got along quite well. I always got along better with Ron than I did with Mary Sue and so did Ann. Mary Sue wasn’t the easiest of people to get along with. Not for a person like me she wasn’t but Ron is a very easy socially to get along with.


As I got to know Ron better and its only because we were meeting socially in restaurants and so forth –night clubs– As I got to know him better I realized things about him. I noticed in the beginning Ron –I don’t know whether other people noticed it because I don’t think I ever mentioned it to anyone, oh, except to Ann (she agreed with me) – was that Ron didn’t experience people. When somebody’s taking to Ron he didn’t experience them, he confronted them. Now there is a difference. If somebody’s talking to me I experience them, I don’t confront them.


Now I’ll better (possibly) explain that. It’s a technical thing. Literally to confront means to “front with” [See appendix 1]. Now Ron in all his life only fronted with things. In fact your training drill [is] called confronting. He called it confronting. And I think Ron only ever knew how to confront people. He always fronted with a subject, he never experienced it.


I can confront people. I can front with things and I can experience. When you’re experiencing you’re not fronting with anything. You’re knowing them, you’re experiencing them and its quite different from confronting. Ron evidently didn’t do that. Ron, in all his personal dealings with people, he always confronted them.


He used to confront them when he was talking to them and he was listening to them. Whatever was happening Ron always was confronting. And that was the fren---s [?], it was a mock-up. A glowing mock-up you might say he used to put there to confront people with. That’s what you used to sense when he walked into a room. It was the confront, the thing he fronting with.
When I first spoke to Ann about this she almost had a line charge, she had a tremendous cognition. She’d spotted it but she didn’t quite understand it. She said: “Yes, right, its exactly right isn’t it. That’s exactly what he does.”


He’s a confronter. He puts [a/the] subject there for you to look at and that’s what you see. He doesn’t experience you, he confronts you. If you knew that about Ron –If you knew the inner most part of the man’s personality that he never experience, that he always confronted. Maybe it was a weakness in his personality. I don’t think Ron ever really experienced anything. He sure as hell confronted, he confronted a hell of a lot (chuckle). I don’t think he ever really experienced anything. I don’t think he was capable of it. But he was one hell of a confronter.
Another thing about Ron that –I think many people who’ve been with him socially realize he was a conversation hogger. You know if you’re at a dinner party sitting around a table then the whole evening revolves ‘round everyone sitting listening to Ron.


Its not that he actually stopped other people from talking. Anything that other people said was just ammunition for Ron to come up with something which was usually very, very interesting. In other words he was a tremendous conversationalist –a first class raconteur. And whatever you had to say pawled [paled] into insignificance compared to what he had to say. So everyone was sitting –rapt attention– listen[ing] to Ron. That was quite the most natural thing in the world to listen to Ron talking.


I didn’t know it at the time we talk[ed] socially and he used to talk about his early auditing experiences in the USA with his various auditors. He never had much success with auditors auditing him. Was two reasons for this, was of course that he was a very fast moving preclear –a very quickly moving preclear. And he moved rapidly up and down his time track. He could move much, much faster than the auditor could follow. The other reason was the subject of confronting.


Now I don’t think Ron ever really experience his engrams in Dianetics, I think he confronted them. He used to go into a pitched battle with his engrams. He used to confront them. It was a part of his personality you see. Just like socially he would confront, I think he used to confront his track too and it used to get him into some difficulties in the session with the auditor. There he was confronting his engrams and he shouldn’t have been confronting them –preclear’s supposed to experience his engrams, he’s supposed to examine them, that means to experience them, to know them. He’s not supposed to be in there confronting them with anything. He’s supposed to be simply –the auditor might want to do a bit of confronting, but the preclear’s supposed to be experiencing his engram bank, not confronting it. It’s a fine technical point but I can assure you that is the way it is. If you don’t get very far with [as] a preclear in Dianetics or Scientology you’ve set out to confront your bank.


Ron used to talk about confronting your bank but it was a mistake –the only thing he ever knew how to do. He didn’t know how to experience because he was a confronter. The only way he knew how to handle life was to put something –was to front it with something– put some energy mass there and use that energy mass to front life with while he sat in the background and charged up the energy mass. That was the way Ron was as a man. Now, as I said, if you knew that about him –you understand that about him– you really understand, because all his behavior then starts to make tremendous sense.


Ann and I, as we got to know him better, it all began to fall into place. We started to examine the man and understand the man in terms of his behavior. It is [the foregoing is] mandatory to have increasing knowledge of Dianetics and Scientology.


During the period of the 1950’s there that I knew Ron the subject of finances, which became quite obsessive with him in his later part of his life, didn’t really concern him at all. He was only concerned with tech and he was certainly –the organizations and so forth in 1952 when he started in London right through to about 1956 when the unit system was brought in. Well during that period ’52 to ’56 the salaries, the payment and so forth in the HASI in London, were well above average for commerce and business.


I was an executive during that period and my pay was way up. And an ordinary staff auditor, that came straight off course, could earn more money as a staff auditor than they could working in an office or working in a factory. The average wage at that time was about eight pounds a week I suppose –less than that about seven pounds–. Well you could earn seven pounds a week as a staff auditor in HASI London in any old time –for a week’s staff auditing you could earn ten pounds. That was before the unit system came in. So Ron was not a mean payer, he was a generous payer. He was an extremely generous person too during this period that I knew him –extremely generous person of his time.


If a person was in trouble I’ve known that man to stay on the phone for an hour and a half to get some preclear out of difficulties. The auditor would phone Ron and Ron would take over the session. And he was on the phone for an hour and a half getting that person out of difficulties –that preclear out of difficulties. The auditor had got the preclear into a mess and phoned Ron in a panic at midnight to help him and poor old Ron had to stay up for an hour and a half to patch up this crummy bit of bloody auditing that this crummy auditor had done. He shouldn’t have been auditing this type of preclear at that time of night you know. [Current practice is that auditing not be done later than 10 PM]. Ron would not think anything of it, that hour and a half on the phone, to get the preclear squared around. He was that sort of man.


He was a very big generous man. And very, very generous financially to his staff. We were all treated very well and our hours of work and so forth, quite congenial. There was no question of exploitation. There was a great team spirit and good pay. We were quite a good team while Ron was present. Now I say “while Ron was present” advisedly because while Ron quite often during that period from ’52 to ’55 early ’56 –while we were on staff and so forth and in close contact with Ron. Ron would be out, he’d be away in America or he’d be on holiday somewhere.
We would be on a commline of air letters to the Old Man. It was long before the date of telexes and all the communications was by mail.


It was then that we began to realize the weakness of the man’s personality. Ron was at his best Ron was at his best when the person he was dealing with was in front of him. When the person he was dealing with was distant from him he started to get to his worst. Ron was hardly the same person on a distant commline than he was when he was with you in the same room.
He was in good control of the situation when he could perceive it and so forth in present time –there was something he could put his paws on– he could handle it, he could do it. And he was darn near genius at doing it.

But put him at a distance and he was at his worst. This weakness that Ron had when he was trying to handle a thing at a distance, it was a question of selecting importances generally, but in particular, was on people around him that he trusted. Ron had a very, very poor ability to select the trustworthy from the untrustworthy.  When I first became aware of it I hardly believed it and I checked with Ann and she’d spotted it too. In such a great man there was this blankness in his personality that he couldn’t evaluate trust in other people. He couldn’t evaluate it and he was an almost sucker for bad news and the 1.1 tone level communication.


So at a distance –what would happen was he would go off to America say and somebody in London (outside the Org) would write to him and say how bad things were in HASI London while he was away. And he would believe them. Now you can say he believed them because he wanted to believe them. Maybe that is true. Maybe it was part of his growing paranoia, which I will talk about later. Maybe it was because he wanted to believe thing were bad over there while he was away. But never the less all the troubles that came about during that period came about when Ron was away.


The most incredible things happened during that period from late 1952 to 1955 on the organizational lines of Scientology. All these incredible things happened while Ron was away and receiving entheta from lunatic friends and believing it. And not make any attempt to check the validity of these lies, and they were lies. Assuming they were true and making staff changes and so forth in his Org in London and putting in people into the Org who had no place to be in the Org. They were simply untrustworthy people. They were technically unqualified and they were untrustworthy and they were just plain incompetent. But Ron could never see this at a distance. Had he spoke to them up close and talked to them, questioned them carefully, personally, he’d spot it. He wouldn’t be fooled. But at a distance they could fool him every time with a letter.


We had a woman who was put in charge of HASI London for a period. She was in charge of 163 Holland Park Avenue. There was two Orgs there, the Org at 163 and there was the training department up at Palace Gardens Terrace. And she came in as the secretary and worked her way up writing letters to Ron, while he was away, telling him how bad things were at Palace Gardens Terrace and the next thing we knew he put her in charge of the whole operation.
And this woman was the wife of a communist. And Ron hated communists (chuckle). Something about Ron Hubbard: politically he was a little bit to the right of Genghis Khan you know. And he didn’t know that this woman’s husband was a communist –we did (laughing). Anyway she was put in charge. She was a communist as well.


And I mean, if you spoke to this woman five minutes you would see that this woman was untrustworthy. I mean I spoke to her –person’s untrustworthy. But she’s not a criminal or anything but I wouldn’t … you know. One of those people the more she spoke of her honesty the faster we counted our spoons. If you remember the quotation.


Anyway, after a while Ron comes back from over seas, gets down to HASI London, goes down to see (I wont give the person’s name), bur he goes down there and says “Oh, could you release a few hundred pounds I’m a bit short of money” release a few hundred pounds from the funds. And she said “Sorry Ron”, she says “all the funds are locked up under my signature. I don’t feel like giving you any money”.


And so help me, while he was away she’d managed to steal the HASI London from him. She was the sole signature on the bank account in HASI London and he’d signed it. Somewhere he’d signed it. He’d signed away HASI London to her. I don’t know how she managed it. Maybe she sent him something and he signed it. Because when he left HASI London he and Mary Sue had the signatory on the main account. They were the only one’s that had the signatory on the main account. When he came back he hadn’t got it. He checked with the bank and it was true, his signature had been removed from the account. This woman’s signature was on the account. And it cost him five thousand dollars to buy back HASI London.


When you look at the old Jo’burg security check you will see that little question appearing there “Have you ever stolen a HASI?” And that’s how it got on the security check, Ron remembered.
He has had his HASI stolen from him. But it was his own fault really for putting in charge a person who was not [a] trustworthy person.


She of course went off, she got five thousand pound out of him. He bought it back. She released the account back to him. There’s nothing he could do about it. He couldn’t sue her or do anything. Everything was legal. As far as the bank was concerned the man had turned over the signatory of the account to this woman and they’ve got written evidence to prove it. No there’s nothing he could do about it except pay her out to get his organization back.


A few months after that happened, one day another guy strolls in and announces he’s got a letter in his pocket from the Old Man in the USA saying he, he’s put in charge of HASI London. This guy was a book auditor, a middle-aged chap. And didn’t look anything special. Was a bit of a merchant of fear actually. We found out later he’d never had a case gain in his auditing. And he was in charge of everything. And its all been done by letter over the Atlantic. He’d written to Ron and said how bad they were in HASI London and Ron had put him in charge (chuckle) something like that as far as I know.


Well there was the man’s weakness you see, that at a distance he could be fooled by entheta. When he was present you couldn’t do it to Ron, he would spot these characters like anyone else would you know. He, he’d spot the entheta merchant. So at a distance they could fool him. They could fool him by letter.


But more importantly was the fact that he would believe these entheta merchants over his own true, trusted staff that he knew was trustworthy, and he would believe them. He would believe the entheta merchant. This was the oddity in the man’s –it could only be a quirk in his personality. It didn’t make any sense –didn’t–. I mean even if he believed the entheta, a rational man would write to his true and trusted staff with a copy of the letter he’d received and say “Comments please”, you know. Normally what a managing director would do, “Please explain this”, I want a full report on this” and then act accordingly. But no, Ron wouldn’t do that. He’d receive the entheta, make no enquiry and start firing people right, left and center in his organization on the basis of of the entheta.


So the weakness in his personality –we only later, much later– that we began to understand why he did this. This didn’t become apparent, oh, up to 1960. There was a definite paranoiac streak in Ron’s personality, a definite paranoiac streak.


In the early 1950s the paranoia was very, very mild –very mild indeed. It just used to manifest itself on the sub[ject] of trust –that he could be fooled on an extended commline. He could trust untrustworthy people. He’d do it time and time again. All of us staff members knew. It wasn’t just Ann and I’ve noticed it. We all knew it. We’d all been the effect of it and we used to talk about it. It was quite obvious. It was blatantly obvious that he would believe entheta at a distance. There was nothing you could do about it.


Later towards 1954 -1955 it became, the paranoia became more marked and it was quite obvious then that –I mean I remember the arguments I had with Ron in his office on the subject of –when he was saying about the psychiatrists. And I would surmise advice to him. I remember I was a senior executive in the Org and knew the man personally and so I felt I could speak to him and I’d say “Ron just leave the psychiatrists alone. Don’t bother them. If we don’t bother them they won’t bother us” and he’d say “There’s things happening on our commlines, these damn psychiatrists are out to get us. They’re upsetting our commlines. So we gotta get them first”.


I should bite my tongue I couldn’t go too far. After all he was the Managing Director. Politely as possible I’d say “Ron there’s nothing there. They’re not doing anything. If we leave them alone –we’ve got the tech. All we’ve gotta do is apply our tech and we’ll win. We don’t need to go into games conditions and playing games and opposing the psychiatrists”. But no he wouldn’t have it. That was the beginnings of his paranoia.


Now paranoia is a mental state where a person believes the world is against him. He has a lowered level of trust. There is a gradient scale of paranoia that goes from just this tiny little level of trust to the person having difficulty trusting at a distance and they have difficulty trusting close up. Then they begin to feel that the whole world is against them. And coupled to it is that self is always right and the world is against me.

They are the characteristics of paranoia. And during the latter part of his life Ron –there’s no doubt– was markedly paranoiac with many of his activities there quite proved it. It was a definite mental condition he had that was worsening as his life went on. Which is quite typical –its well known that paranoia is a mental condition that worsen a person grows older. And it certainly worsened in Ron’s life. His paranoia worsened and eventually it worsened as the tragic events in the latter years of his life –when we hear of the events that happened in the Sea Org and so on. But I’m jumping the gun on my story. But eventually it almost led to the collapse of Scientology. And it certainly, his paranoia, was a direct cause of Scientology organizations –to the church falling into the hands of these unscrupulous people evidently its fallen into today. That is a direct result of Ron’s increasing paranoia in his latter years.


But as I say I’m jumping the gun here. But if you really want to understand the latter years of Ron Hubbard’s life you’d better bone up on the subject of paranoia in any psychiatric textbook. It is a well documented mental condition. And you’ll find that Ron suffered from it. He’d sure suffered from it in his latter years.

But in early, when I first knew him in the early 19 –mid 1950s, 52, 53 it wasn’t evident there, the man was free of it. It was only in the later years toward ’54, ’55 he began to show it. This difficulty of handling communication lines at a distance and trust, started to show up and so on. It slowly worsened during his life.


Did I notice any difference in the personality of Ron between 1956, the last time I saw him and 1962 when I saw him again on the Saint Hill Briefing Course? –Yes there was. There was a definite change in the personality.


He was a lot heavier and physically a lot older and he looked much, much worse physically. Not just because he was grosser, his body fatter. But I would say that he was, during that period that I was at Saint Hill, that he was under enormous –I’m speaking as, as an auditor a Scientologist, I would say that he was under enormous psychological restimulation. Enormous restimulation of his bank during the time. I knew it then but I didn’t know why. Why he was under such heavy restimulation. It was only later that I realized research on goals that he was doing in 1962 was killing him.


It was only when I started to do my own research in the area of goals and purposes in conflict that I realized the pitfalls that Ron had fallen into and how dangerous these pitfalls are. They nearly killed me too when I tried to work through these pitfalls. Fortunately I solved it, I got it out. But Ron never did solve it, he suffered. He suffered cruelly from his bank in the 1960’s. And I don’t think psychologically he ever recovered from that because he never did get it right.
If he’d had solved the problem of postulates in conflict his bank would have gone out of restim. He would have been clear of it technically. But he never solved it. And because he never solved it technically he never got out of restimulation. That restimulation of his bank stayed with him for the rest of his life. Right to the very end. In fact his psychological condition worsened considerably.


Ron, round about 1962 onwards –if you track the man’s life there you’ll see it went fairly smoothly through the fifties and there was this slight paranoia. And then from about 1961, late ’61-’62 he started to get under heavy restimulation when he started to get into the subject of goals. And then he really started –his paranoia got worse as you would expect it to do. By the mid sixties, and so forth, he was almost, well (they) people who were with him [were] saying that he was almost impossible to communicate with. That he was always right, that he had to be right. He trusted no one. He was firmly convinced that everyone was out to steal Scientology. In other words the paranoia was marked. He was doing all sorts of things to try to save the organizations which weren’t being attacked by anyone. But he believed they were under a constant attack. They weren’t.


He brought in a set of ethics policies. Well, you can get the whole picture if you follow the cycle there you’ll see the decline that [of] the personality of the great man that he was.
When I first met him in 1952 he was at his peak as a person. I can’t say that for sure. I didn’t know him , I’ve never met him prior to 1962 [1952] but I would say off hand that he was at his peak about late 1952 when he just discovered Scientology and he got into exteriorization and he himself was a good thetan exterior. Could see it clear he was, personally he was. And this was the high point in his life.


His technical output during that period was absolutely incredible, was quite phenomenal technical output during the ‘50s and he was very, very high toned –very high toned. So I’d say that he reached his peak at that period. I was fortunate I knew the man during his peak. Towards late 1955, ’56 I started to become aware of the decline which was even more marked in 1962. I was appalled by what I saw in 1962. I really felt for Ron. I didn’t know what was happening. I knew he was under restim but I didn’t know why he was under such cruel restimulation.


He thought he was solving it, he really did. He thought he was solving the subject and we all thought he was solving the subject of postulates in conflict (goals). He used to talk so highly about his technology we all thought he’d solved it and he thought he’d solved it. But he hadn’t. It was killing him. It was killing everyone who tried it. That was the awful thing about it.
There’s a thing about goals technology. Once you play with goals you put them in conflict with each other. You either do it exactly right or you kill the preclear. And that is a technical datum. You’d better do it right or you’re gonna kill someone.


In TROM I know how to do it right. It’s the only technology I know that will do it right. I don’t know of any other technology that does it right. Certainly Ron’s technology on goals did not do it right and he was killing himself. I don’t know anyone who got any benefit from it. He was killing others too.


Another factor of Ron’s personality that very few people know about is that he had considerable sexual difficulties. I first became aware of this on the HPA course in 1952. He gave a lecture on the subject of sex and it was the first time I ever, in the whole time I ever –and I knew Ron Hubbard for many years now and must have sat through hundreds of his lectures when [that] he gave live. It was the only time that I ever saw him uncomfortable when he spoke. It was the only time he ever spoke about sex. He spoke about sex on the HPA course. He devoted a whole hour’s lecture to the subject of sex and it hit him really hard. He was very, very uncomfortable about it.


It is only in retrospect when I look back at it that I realize that –and other things (later) I heard (so forth) – things I heard about him. I realized that he had more than average difficulties on the subject of sex as a person. As a part of his personality. I wouldn’t go into details of what they are because I’m not absolutely certain. I didn’t know him that well. But I would say he had considerable sexual difficulties as a person and he was not comfortable with the subject of sex. Sex was an uncomfortable subject for Ron Hubbard.


You’ll notice that such an important subject of sex –it’s a very important subject for human beings. Yet there’s hardly any mention of sex in the whole technology of Scientology. There’s hardly any mention of it. Ron did not study sex. It hardly appeared, there’s just a few throw away lines in one, two of his tapes –one, two of his lectures. It’s mentioned in one, two of his books and so forth. The subject of sex did not receive the attention it deserved in Scientology. It was almost totally neglected.


I have filled up these gaps when I studied TROM. When I was doing research on TROM I filled in the gaps that Ron didn’t. It was too uncomfortable for [him] to research the avenue of sexuality. Well its not too uncomfortable for me to research the avenue of sexuality because I don’t have any bugs into the subject so that its an easy one for me to research. I’ve researched it and got all the bugs out of the subject. But poor old Ron, it was too tough for him. That’s why he kept away from it. And that’s why you won’t find anything on the subject of sex in any of his books and writings and tapes. That in itself is odd if you think about it. It’s only because of his own peculiarities on the subject of sex. He had sexual prob[lems] and he was very uncomfortable with the subject of sex, Ron was. It was not a comfortable subject with Ron Hubbard, was sex.


So it was no surprise to me when I discovered the atrocious way he treated one of his sons when he discovered one of his sons was homosexual. He virtually threw the lad out of his life. He virtually misowned [disowned] him. Only a person with considerable difficulties on the subject of sex could do that to his own son. Ron would have to have lots of difficulties on the subject of sex and he did have lots of difficulties. Only a person like that could do that to his own son.


So all the bits over the years –you put the bits together and they all fit. And he never got these things resolved, his sex life, in therapy. He never did get them resolved. They stayed with him till the day he died.


I don’t think he has ever had the courage to mention it to an auditor. He simply didn’t trust auditors to audit him. Maybe in his latter years with David Mayo he might have done. I don’t know what sort of relationship they had but I don’t think so. I will be very surprised if they did anything but Ron’s various OT techniques and so forth. I’d be surprised if David Mayo dug out an E-Meter and said “Right Ron today we’re going to talk about sex, All right here we go” (chuckle).


No the sessions would have been run by Ron, Ron always run the sessions whether he was the auditor or the preclear. That’s my experience of Ron that he was always running the session.
One of the more interesting off shoots of Ron Hubbard’s paranoia was that during his lifetime from 1950 onwards right through to 1980 [1983] when he died he had a selection of the world’s greatest Dianeticists and Scientologists working for his organization. They all, sometime or another, worked in his organization and without exception he let each and every one of them slip through his fingers. He lost the lot.


Now this is quite [an] achievement. He had the pick of the crop, he had the best and he lost the lot, each and every one of them without exception. He went through a cycle. He welcomed them in, the relationship soured the[y] ARC break and he threw them out. He let them slip through his fingers.


Maybe he brought them back afterwards. Some people went in and out of the organization many times. Some great Scientologists worked for Ron on and off many times. In the end they parted company. They realized it was impossible to work with the man. And that they didn’t have to. They were good enough in their own right. They didn’t have to work with him. They didn’t have to be under this constant emotional strain of his particular neurosis and psychosis (chuckle). They didn’t have to suffer it. So they used to get out of the Org. So he let them all slip through his fingers. Now that is quite an achievement.


If he’d been a different personality of man that he was he could have collected, over the years –he could have made darn sure he collected the greatest Scientologists that ever passed through the training colleges and training schools. And some of them was brilliant. He would’ve had a stall of the cream of the cream and he could’ve done. But he knew how to evaluate them. But his paranoia beat him every time. He always let them slip through his fingers.


Sometimes he believed lies about them and would fire them (of lies). He’d only believe lies that they done something they hadn’t done. Other times he was simply jealous of them. Some of the greatest Scientologists who worked for Ron got fired, they were simply too good (laugh). He was scared that they were [would] take over his glory and so he fired them. That again was part of his paranoia. He had to be the only one. Nobody could take the mantle, it had to be him, you see.


So of course if you approach an organization with that idea, it comes a time when you’re gonna die and who’re you gonna hand it over to. You see you have to train a successor. You haven’t made any provisions to a succession of the organization. When Ron died it fell into the hands of incompetent adolescents. Young people in their mid twenties who knew very little of life. Many of them had spent their life and childhood in the Sea Org –had no idea about life and worked their way up through the Sea Org. All they knew was Scientology policies and they were senior executives and they were now in charge of this world wide organization.


Well, they had no claim to these positions. No claim at all. They’d simply hadn’t the got the technical expertise or ability to hold these positions they were in and so of course the subject suffered. And that’s why we find in the organizations of Scientology today [the] state it is in, in the hands of incompetent children.


So we see how the personality of Ron governed the future of his own organization inevitably. You see quite clearly the outcome. The situation today (the) [was] brought about entirely [by] the actions of L Ron Hubbard the founder of Dianetics and Scientology.


Finally at this late stage in my life I can assure you that in 1994 I’m not the same person that I was as the person who knew him in September 1952. I can assure you that I’m quite a different person. The stars are no longer in my eyes. But I think I can view the man much more objectively now than I could then.


What is my final summation and assessment? Well, as a psychotherapist he was second to none and was undoubtedly the greatest man in his field of this century. There is absolutely no doubt about that -that [and] his researches and his additions to the sum total of human knowledge of the human psyche.


When you think of the miserable things that the psychiatrists and the miserable discoveries that the psychologists and psychiatrists come up with in their universities when they’ve got all these vast funds to play with and Ron self financed his own research and comes up with enormously workable technology. It’s a difference between plodders and a genius. The man in his field was a genius, there’s no doubt about that. He was a genius. He was a flawed genius. But the man can be excused for being a flawed genius. We’re very, very fortunate to have had Ron, very, very fortunate. People don’t know how fortunate we were to have Ron Hubbard.


And one of the saddest things that’s happening on this planet at this time, as far as I know, and I had this on quite reliable authority, that his work is being plundered and alterissed and notissed by his own church that he left it to. The people there are methodically going through his works and changing his works and changing it, chopping it up and throwing out the bits that they think are no good. It’s like leaving a vast mass of workable technology to a group of children who don’t understand it and who play with it because it doesn’t happen to fit the wins there of what they think it ought to be [and] they change it [to] make it fit the wins of their silly rather pathetic little minds. That’s what’s happening to Scientology today on this planet.


The repository of Scientology tech is being plundered by the people, by the keepers of the repository. The keepers of the archives are in there with scissors chopping up the material. Oh yes they hold him in great reverence as they chop up his material and make it more marketable. Their excuse for doing it is to make it more profitable because that is their only goal, is profit.
But this isn’t a talk about profit. This isn’t a talk about marketing. This isn’t a talk about business. This is a talk about Ron Hubbard the man.


Yes as I say we were very, very fortunate. Most of the planet don’t know how fortunate we were to have Ron during that period 1911 to 1983. And we certainly, the vast majority of mankind, didn’t appreciate his genius. Sure he was a flawed genius. Most geniuses are you know. The last perfect genius, well, I think they nailed him up on a cross. So I think Ron could be excused for being a flawed genius.


During the 1950s when I believe Ron was at his best as a research Scientologist, some of his material was breathtaking in its simplicity and breathtaking in its application. I mean, in the mid ‘50s Ron used to call me an encyclopedia of Scientology. He could use me as a reference if he quick[ly] wanted to know something he just called me in and said “Dennis what about so and so?” and I’d say “Oh yes, page so and so” you know. I was a reference encyclopedia of Scientology.


He just used to leave me breathless at times you know. He’d come into the Org at ten-o-clock in the morning and I’d be at tea at the time, the tape would be running and I’d hear him come in, there’d be a tap on the door. I’d recognize the tap and off I’d trot to his office. Or he’d call for a secretary and the girl would come in and get me and say “Ron wants you”. He had actually written on a piece of paper. “What do you think about this?” and I say “Ron it’s incredible”. “Yes” he’d say “It is good, Isn’t it” and give me a little talk on the subject. You know, he’d thought of it on the bus coming down that morning (chuckle). The sheer fertility of the man’s creativity in that period was absolutely incredible, you know. A good 95% never saw the light of day, got superseded and so forth. And some of it was absolutely first class stuff. Many of it got lost on thin air I[‘d] forgotten it. But it was all good stuff. It was brilliant stuff. He was a creative genius, there was no doubt about that.


He should have had somebody walking round behind him with a tape recorder and catching every word, putting it down to posterity. He was that sort of man during the [that] part of his life. (routine?)


Unfortunately he didn’t maintain the quality of his lectures during 1962 on the briefing course, were far less than they were in the 1950s. Some of them were just downright boring. He used to try to make them interesting. But of course there he was under enormous restimulation which he wasn’t under in the 1950s. So again it’s excusable. Never the less the material there was –I think the creative spark was already going in 1962, was already fading out. But it’s difficult to be certain because [of] the enormous restimulation he’s put himself under. Not unconsciously(?) but enormous restimulation he was under on the subject of purposes in conflict.


I knew that one of the sadnesses in his life at that time was that he couldn’t communicate this material to Mary Sue. Mary Sue never was –she was published as being a technical expert, she never was, you know (chuckle). There was definitely second, third rate on her grasp of Scientology tech. She couldn’t stay with Ron. Half the time she couldn’t even follow what he was talking about. So when he used to try and talk to Mary Sue about these things it was talking to a brick wall. That’s why he used to love coming down to the Org and talking to Jack Parker, Ray Kemp and me or Ann, you know. He used to love talking to his tech staff because we could listen to him and could comment intelligently. His wife couldn’t, Mary Sue couldn’t. Ron used to try to teach –make Mary Sue into a technical expert. She just hadn’t got it in her. She was very good at raising babies Mary Sue was. But as a technical wizard in Scientology she just, she wasn’t.


Well there isn’t much more I can think of on the subject of L Ron Hubbard the man that I knew. I’ve just about exhausted the lot. I’m very, very glad to have met him. I consider it a great privilege in my life to’ve been able to work with Ron Hubbard and to have some of his greatness rub off on me. And I think some of it did.

Well that just about wraps it up Antony. I hope you’ll be able to transcribe this tape and you may be able to even get an article out of it, I don’t know. Anyway I’ll post it over to you and all the best.

End of tape.

 
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