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Larry Brennan on the Corporate Sort Out PDF Print E-mail
Management - Current Management

Interview of Larry Brennan, on November 8, 2007

by Tom Smith, host of WXYB, 1520 am

Hillsborough Community College, Indian Rocks Beach, Tampa, Florida
 
TS = Tom Smith
LB = Larry Brennan
 
TS: Welcome to the Edge. I'm you're host Tom Smith. Many of us are not informed of the inner workings of the Church of Scientology, founded by the American writer, L Ron Hubbard. The facade maintained by organized Scientology uses celebrity poster boys and religious pretense. Today on our program we are going to strip that image aside, and look at a few things that really go on.
 
Our guest is Larry Brennan who has held a number of positions with organized Scientology. He's been the director of all Scientology legal operations outside a litigation area, worldwide from mid 1976 through mid 1981. As the legal Branch One Director of the Guardian's Office Worldwide, he held similar positions prior to that in the United States Guardians Office. He's worked on organized Scientology's corporate evolution in 1981 through 1983 and presented to the leader of the Scientology organization, David Miscavige the planning for that. He was in charge of the Scientology Special Unit and Watchdog Committee, which was an oversight committee designated as member X in 1982 and 1983 working directly with David Miscavige on Scientology's corporate, legal and other external affair matters.
 
Welcome to the Edge, Larry.
 
LB: Oh thanks, Tom. It's real good to be here.
 
TS: Shall we start? Can you kind of give us some background about your involvement with the actual Scientology corporation?
 
LB: Well, yeah sure. I think you summarized it very well. Bottom line, I was in the Guardians Office in the United States Guardian's Office in 85, late 84, early 86 where we were in charge of the corporate work, corporate structure, tax status, et cetera, of Scientology organizations. Got to work under Hubbard on a number of things then, which may come up on this program, including the move of Flag, the Flagship to Clearwater, Florida and how that was done undercover. We covered a little bit of that on the program we did before.
Then I went to the Guardian's Office Worldwide at Saint Hill Manor in East Grinstead Sussex, England. Was there for about five years on running the legal outside of the courts and then went and did what they call their, "corporate sort out " and worked a Special Unit. Worked directly with "DM" - David Miscavige. This was a period of time when he was supposedly in Author Services and he has said in courts and various declarations that he was not involved in running the Church then, but he was, and I worked directly under him, but.
 
By way of a summary I suppose, I would say that Scientology, L Ron Hubbard is the acknowledged founder of Scientology, and he always ran it when he could, despite many statements that he had retired, or what have you, as the executive director, he continued to run it. And he ran it until Miscavige ran it, underneath Hubbard in 81-82 and then finally Miscavige took over on Hubbard's demise. But, despite a religious, caring, maybe decent front, put out by the organization it was really was built and run and controlled using constant lies and deception and what I consider fraud, as well as outright brutality and abuses of countless others. And this is just a summary and we can go into details there shortly.
 
It was run like this at one time by Hubbard via Miscavige, that's when they did the corporate evolution in 81 - 82. But really in my opinion here, and this is just my opinion, having worked with Miscavige and seeing the Hubbard orders at that time. Miscavige was a very poorly educated, I don't think he had been through high school when he was a kid. And he worked directly under Hubbard who at that time was certainly not at his best - he was very brutal, the type of orders he was given about taking over sectors and dealing with people and spitting on people and all that.
 
And I think Miscavige was very impressionable and he learned how to operate under Hubbard like that and on Hubbard's demise that's all Miscavige knew was that sort of brutality. It was sort of like, you know, he saw this abuse he learned by abuse and he's now the big abuser. Anyway, he took it to an entirely new level and he controls you know, an empire, financial empire worth certainly at least, hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions. He completely controls it as a dictator and that's basically a summary of what it was, but what I can go into to whatever degree you'd like as how it got to that point, and what changed and you know, so on and so forth. But I'd like to get some background behind it, but that's sort of a summary of it.
 
TS: OK. Well, basically can you kind of give us some background about what you did, your roll in the whole a ?
 
LB: Corporate?
 
TS: Right
 
LB: OK, well, in 1981 the Commodore's Messenger Organization acting on orders from Hubbard, and as carried out by "DM" - David Miscavige, actually ended up taking over the Guardian's Office and I was in the Guardian's Office Worldwide at the time so I was asked to go out to report to California for an urgent matter. So I went to Los Angeles and found out that they needed, that the people who were working on a Corporate Sort Out mission to corporately put right the affairs of Scientology were no longer there and they needed somebody else to run it and I ended up being the person to run what's called a "Mission," as a missionaire.
 
And so what we did is, well first of all, to give you a little bit of background. Just in the months - in the year prior to that, David Miscavige ran a mission called Mission Corporate Category Sort Out, it's known kind of as "MCCS" and that mission was allegedly to set the corporate affairs straight for Scientology and it had people, Gerry Armstrong was on it, he was going to get Hubbard's biography written. Laurel Sullivan was working on the corporate matters. But David Miscavige ran it. And the problem was, David was incompetent, and like I say, he didn't even have a high school education and he would not listen to the advice of the missionaires like Laurel and Gerry. Like for example, they were pointing out the things that were just fraudulent about Hubbard running the organization and yet Miscavige was trying to lie saying that he wasn't and they were trying to really get it so that Hubbard really didn't run it. So it could be run by the hierarchy of the Church and Miscavige didn't want that. Gerry Armstrong was telling them that what he needed to do, was stop all the lies about Hubbard - about his phenomenal accomplishments in life and the military and education and all that, they were totally false. And David Miscavige would not listen to that. And Hubbard was directly involved with it and I had many of Hubbard's orders at that time even in respect to that mission.
 
Later on, Miscavige testified in court that Hubbard was not involved, but he was. And the bottom line is that mission broke up because they wouldn't do what Miscavige and Hubbard wanted them to do and I ended up on a mission, instead of MCCS it was called Corporate Sort Out. To make along story short, we came up, the problem was, the apparent problem was, that most of the eggs of Scientology corporately were in a corporate basket of a corporation known as the Church of Scientology of California. In it was organizations like the Commodore's Messengers Organization, the Executive Director International's Organization, and major revenue-producing arms like Flag and Advanced Organization of Los Angeles, and American Saint Hill Organization, et cetera.
 
And what was happening was that there was alot of litigants under attorney Mike Flynn and others that were suing Scientology for various abuses and what have you. And, it was getting at that, corporate you know, big eggs in the basket organization. Really, the Corporate Sort Out was in a large part done to insulate and hide those assets from litigants. Now Miscavige specifically testified in court in the next decade, that was not the purpose, but it was really was one of the big purposes of it. The other one was to protect Hubbard and Miscavige, like the senior people in Scientology so that they could continue to run it without being legally liable for it.
 
So it was very complicated to say the least but that's what it was about. But what happened is, alot of us on the corporate mission thought that basically we could get it sorted out and there could be a new evolution in Scientology management. It really wouldn't be run like it shouldn't be run, it really wouldn't be money going, like millions of dollars were going to Hubbard under cover and that could stop.
 
What happened is, we spent millions of dollars, we spent a long time, we got a corporate planning together. I brought it to Miscavige myself and sat with him for a good five hours and answered his questions. And to summarize it all out, because alot of people here aren't going to be corporate people. There were four things that was going to be organized Scientology. the Church of Scientology International, a new corporation would actually manage Scientology. Not Hubbard, not Miscavige, it would be the Church of Scientology International. And in the Church of Scientology International would be the Commodore's Messenger Organization International, the Executive Director International's office. The real management, so that would be cool. They would have contracts with all the other Churches of Scientology, what have you and everything would be real smooth.
 
The second thing is, we created a body called Religious Technology Center. And it really was not supposed to be management, and it would focus on as it were, the "pureness" of Hubbard's technology covered by the trademarks. OK, that was fair enough. And then the third thing was, money could still go to Hubbard not by cover up and lies as was done before but actually by illegally defensible channels like royalties for his books and what have you. And lastly, Author Services would be created a company called Author Services International or Incorporated and it would be truly an organization that does what it says which is make money on Hubbard's fiction works, and would totally be separate out from the management of the Church of Scientology.
 
So really with those four things it would be a whole new evolution in Scientology's corporate status and management. It would be honest and straightforward and that's what the corporate sort out was designed to do. But the problem is - it didn't do it, it just made it look like that was the case. And, for example, and I don't want to bore anybody on this but as an example - prior to the corporate sort out, in the years prior there were several million dollars funneled to Hubbard through a phony corporation called Religious Research Foundation.
 
Now the Mission Corporate Category Sort Out, those guys were trying to figure out how to make that legally defensible, retroactively, like oh my God! What a mistake. What a horrible, thing, that this money, cause Hubbard was putting out issues to all scientologists that he never benefited from Scientology, he never took any money. But the fact is, he was taking several million dollars while staffs were starving. I mean
 
TS: Yeah
 
LB: He would advise and write policies that International Management take all the money they can off the top of all the organizations whether they were in Germany or the US or whatever, so if the organizations could not spend them, but then alot of it ended getting funneled to him. So, while that was the thing that happened prior to the corporate sort out and we thought the corporate sort would prevent that from happening in the future, just the opposite happened. For example, in the year after the corporate sort out with Miscavige running things. If you look at testimony from the Julie Christofferson-Tichbourne case, testimony by Homer Shomer and affidavits that were in a case after that, you will find that in 82 alone DM funneled over forty million dollars - not two million like before - but forty million dollars to Hubbard. He in every way, the corporate integrity that was made to appear real - in the new structure - was completely untrue.
 
He in every way ran organized Scientology through Author Services. And he did that through running the top dogs like he ran the Watchdog Committee chairman, Mark Yeager, at the time, and Watchdog Committee Finance, another Mark. He ran me as Special Unit. He ran Steve Marlow as Religious Technology Center. So he would have meetings over at ASI, secret meetings that we would go to and he would basically tell us who's going to be running the Church, who's not going to be running the Church but it was - it turned out that the corporate structure that was done was made to appear impenetrable and very defensible but it was hiding the same level of fraud even worse than prior to that.
 
TS: Yeah
 
LB: So anyway, I could go on with a great deal of detail, but I think that probably one example that explains it the best is - after the corporate structure was done, right, and so now I'm a executive in CSI, in the highest authority body, which is Watchdog Committee, right? And so are seven or eight other people. Well, Miscavige is over in Author Services which is just supposed to just be handling Hubbard's fiction works. But in reality he's ordering us what to do in that we have to send money to Hubbard - not for the fiction works - but for Scientology works. And, it was a weekly demand. In that time period in 82 when forty-million dollars got funneled. There was calls from Miscavige and his people - every single week - a millions got to go - a half a millions got to go. Work out whatever the significance is. He's threatened to strangle people if they didn't do it. I've even gone to the International
 
TS: This is, Hubbard or is this Miscavige?
 
LB: This is Miscavige. I've even gone, and this time period where later in courts he said he was Author Services right, not involved in running the church?
 
TS: Yeah
 
LB: In that exact time period I have seen him at the churches International headquarters. I've seen him take a top WC member, punch him hard on the mouth. Another one strangled down to the floor. Another one slapped down. Because they wouldn't listen to him and Hubbard. And all this time, Miscavige is saying in court, "I'm not involved in the running of it, we're all separate corporations. Hubbard's not involved." Well, it's totally a lie. Because I was on Watchdog Committee. I had Hubbard's orders every single week. And every week we got orders from him. What to do, and including what to do about non-Hubbard technology in churches. What to do on the corporate stuff and all that. And a it was regular and ongoing
 
TS: So, if you didn't do those things
 
LB: He was the enforcer.
 
TS: Yeah. If you didn't do those things, he would punish people with felony violence?
 
LB: Oh, absolutely. I mean there were people that came to me, that were busted. That asked if they were going to jail - they've been told they're going to jail and I'm just trying to tell them their not going to jail but they're told they're going to jail. What happened is, there's some things that have been in Jon Atack's book for example, "A Piece of Blue Sky" where he talks about the brutality of taking over the mission network. That is absolutely true. Everything I've read in there, and I've read that whole section is absolutely true and in many cases, and in fact, an understatement. He would regularly use the brutality that he learned - from Hubbard at that time - and he didn't trust anybody.
 
Like little things that haven't been posted, like for example, that are not known - In early 81 I was on the first WISE mission, to incorporate WISE in Lichtenstein.
And the person I was taking my orders from was Hubbard via telexes. And I did incorporate the first WISE Corporation in Lichtenstein which we didn't use but Hubbard said, "the name killed the PR" because it was WISE Limited. But in any event, the significance of this was - 1) Hubbard was running it at the time that Miscavige said Hubbard was not. 2) I know what the real purpose of WISE was and it was nothing that had to do with all the grand goals and beautiful things stated in WISE promotion. The real purpose of WISE was right from Hubbard.
 
He completely distrusted public scientologists and thought they were going to rip off organizations and they had to be handled with terminatedly and at once. So part of the handling was to set up an organization that would police, corral, control them and even take money from them and keep them off of the organizations lines. And the other part of the handling was to use the newly created finance police, to put people in jail. And put heads on pikes. So Hubbard had ordered that and DM was carrying that out. And Wendell, and if you wanted to see testimony on this, that's very real, there is Don Larson worked under Wendell Reynolds on the In-Finance police, and he did many brutal acts of extortion and that on scientologists and he's even admitted it. You can find it on the Web, his own video, you know where he's apologizing for having done it. Well, I've seen him do it and others do it. But DM says, Miscavige says, as I said later in court, that he and Hubbard were not running things which they were. And they took over from the GO because the GO was brutal and bad and violated Scientology policy and all that. But in actual fact
 
TS: His wife was running the GO. Mary Sue Hubbard
 
LB: Hubbard was running the GO
 
TS: OK
 
LB: Mary Sue, his wife was known as the Controller, and she was prior to that known, her title was, "Commodore's Staff Seven." I mean, GO - "Commodore's Staff GO." And so, they had to change that name because Commodore was Hubbard, and it made it clear that Hubbard was running Mary Sue who was running the GO. So they changed to Controller so that it would look like she was controlling the GO and not Hubbard but he was. As a matter of fact, when the GO got busted on the FBI raids for just incredible crimes, like trying to, you know from the horrible abuses on Paulette Cooper, to abuses on other people, to infiltration of the US government - all the things that were done - those were done under Hubbard orders. And what happened in the months that followed that FBI raid - is the Guardian's Office and the Commodore's Messenger Organization went into full "all handses" of scores and scores of people doing full time vetting just to get erased from the files all of Hubbard's orders and so on and so forth that were behind these criminal actions. So the thing about Scientology is, corporate structure has never meant much of anything. It's always been camouflaged, it's always been Hubbard when he was competent enough, at least to control it, and then it was Miscavige.
 
TS: So Miscavige began his career as Hubbard's henchman.
 
LB: That is absolutely correct and he did it through what was called an, "All Clear Unit" which allegedly was to make it all clear for Hubbard to come out of hiding, but what it did is it broke down into two confidential Special Units. One was called, "Special Project" and that's what DM stated himself and that evolved into being Author Services. Another part of that unit what became known as, "Special Unit." That's the one I ended up running the Special Unit IC. And that went into the Church of Scientology International. But that was how the control was executed. It wasn't on any organizing boards or anything like that, it was Miscavige ran both of those units. To give you another example, how clear cut - for one thing, it's very clear Hubbard lied about his past and his accomplishments and all that and it's very clear that DM has as well. But in my opinion, I think the average judge is going to find that DM's lies became legal perjury and a crime.
 
And the reason I say that is, he's testified in court with these lies, and he's written declarations under penalty of perjury and filed them in like, the Wollersheim case and other cases in the 90's. For example, here are a couple of little quotes, right. This is from Miscavige under penalty of perjury. He goes, "neither RTC nor I have any corporate authority under any Scientology church including CSI." He says, "the Sea Organization is a religious fraternal order, like the Catholic priesthood with its own rituals and traditions that exemplify and foster members shared and deeply held commitment to the religion. It confers no corporate or ecclesiastical authority. Sea Org members are staffed in many churches of Scientology across the globe. Any authority they have in the church entity that employs them derives from their position in that church structure and not their honorary status in the Sea Organization. "He's got hundreds of quotes like this that are absolutely false. Like he had one - one he's even made a mistake on that he's proven he's a liar. And like for example in one, Section fifty-seven of a Declaration of a Wollersheim case, he says, "I was not involved in that restructuring, but I'm aware of the events that led up to it." And he was talking about the 1981 corporate evolution and restructuring.
 
TS: Yeah
 
LB: So, from his declaration he's absolutely not involved. But then if you go to a website called Scientologytoday.org/corp/rtc2 they're praising David Miscavige. They said, here's a quote: "Mr. David Miscavige has worked tirelessly to protect the religion. He authored the early 1980's reorganization of church corporate and management structures that have given the religion years of sustained growth and stable leadership."
 
So, they can't even keep their lies straight. And also, he didn't author it. I brought it to him. He blew his opportunity of it, of doing it a year prior to that because he couldn't understand it. So he didn't author it but like Hubbard, he starts to claim all these things. But he's even making statements now that are showing as lies, things that he made under penalty of perjury in court cases, so its kind of, it's kind of crazy. And I don't know if you want me to continue to give examples, but I can give you examples for ten straight hours on this.
 
TS: [laughter] Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of time, it would be great. We'd have to take quite a few breaks I think. Allright.
 
LB: I think, bottom line is, it goes on and on and on. And honestly, I mean, this is probably, bring somebody inside the Corporate Sort Out for example, on a very simple level that proves this point. When we broke up the Church of Scientology of California - Let's say, just for the Flag area which is now in Clearwater, Florida. We created three new corporations that were relevant to that area - the Church of Scientology International, which is the mother church. That would have a few representatives down there in Florida.
 
The Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization which would be most of them. And then of course we kept the Church of Scientology of California alive with a few people there. Well, it was us, the missionaires under Miscavige who decided who was going into which corporation. And, even they're quote, unquote "board members" the people we picked to be that, they didn't even know who was going on. We would just say - this one's going to be in this corporation, this one would take the orders from that one. And we were setting up all the window dressing. In fact, we pulled a bunch of students off courses at Flag and sent them all around the world to get the churches to sign the new agreements with the new mother Church of Scientology International.
 
he local churches for the most part didn't even know who their board members were, they never met. And they weren't allowed to read the agreements. I myself was sent my Miscavige to "Pubs," the New Era Publications in Copenhagen, Denmark, to get them to sign the new royalty contracts with Hubbard. They didn't even get to read them. So, it's not just that, maybe there's a little bit of an out corporate integrity, it's a one hundred percent controlled by Hubbard and then Miscavige with just a whole bunch of camouflage put around it to make it look like it's not.
 
TS: So these boards of directors, these various corporate entities are - it's all a sham? Am I right?
 
LB: Oh, absolutely, it was all under the Guardian's Office. I mean, the Guardian's Office held undated resignations of them per Hubbard orders. But the thing is, the big change that Miscavige says happened you know, took over the GO and it's a new era - it's a new era allright. He kept the same Hubbard orders that you know - that in 1982 alone - more scientologists - this is staff and public were abused in what they call a, "gang bang sec check" where a bunch of people go and scream at them on a "meter" and all that.
 
TS: Well it's kind of, Soviet-style Nazi interrogation.
 
LB: Oh, absolutely. The more that happened and the more scientologists were declared, beaten and abused and sent to penal camps in that one year under Miscavige than the total of the fifteen years under the Guardian's Office Worldwide.
 
TS: OK, we should qualify that. Now you said penal camps. What are you specifically referring to?
 
LB: Primarily what's called the Rehabilitation Project Forces and that's something that Hubbard created and Miscavige used alot and people would be sent to these, where they would be housed for the most part with - there are so many stories on the Internet that people can read of people who have escaped them or left them for one reason or another, and they're telling their stories. But for the most part people lived in squalor, they worked unbelievable hours. They got very little sleep. They were indoctrinated all the time. They had to run around, they were spit upon and in cases where they were up by Miscavige. And it was just a horrible hell.
What shows you, how disingenuous organized Scientology under Miscavige is, that relates directly to this is, for example they have an organization called the International Association of Scientologists. It's nothing more than a bank account to get membership money out of people who want to continue to do services. Well what happens is, they put out a very beautiful, glossy Magazine called "Impact." I mean it's a really high quality in that, it's as good as National Geographic. You know the color photos, and the quality of the paper.
 
Well, a recent one, I think Issue 115, some earlier this year, came out acknowledging how organized Scientology is behind the universal UN Declaration of Human Rights. And they went and listed all these incredible human rights. You know - freedom of association, of family, and being able to voice your opinion and all this other, and freedom of movement. And in that magazine there's maybe one, maybe two pictures of Hubbard. But there's like fifteen pictures of David Miscavige - smiling, happy. But right when you read that magazine, you have to realize that at same time - there are hundreds of people that have all those rights denied them - on the Rehabilitation Project Forces around the world. Like it's not in some areas. Like the German government for example, won't allow the church to do a Rehabilitation Project Force. Like a camp.


 
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