Home arrow Management arrow Larry Brennan on the Corporate Sort Out  
Saturday, 22 December 2012
Larry Brennan on the Corporate Sort Out PDF Print E-mail
Management - Current Management
TS: Yeah
LB: At the same time you're reading about these wonderful, grand, beautiful things by organized Scientology, they're violating all of those rights. On their very own people. Many of them, they're own top management people, who were very good people, had very good intentions, were sacrificing their lives to do something they believed in - and you could say maybe it was silly of them, whatever - but they were putting it all on the line, and they'd be the very people you know, sent to these penal camps. They would be slapped. They would be beaten. They would be humiliated. They would be made to divorce. Made to have abortions. A "clear planet" is Scientology's says they want. A planet run by Scientology. You know David Miscaviges version, could be an Orwellian nightmare of you know, families must disconnect from each other, there penal camps for anybody who doesn't tow the line.
TS: It sounds like it's kind of a totalitarian –
LB: I truly understand. I had to go to Germany for a few days and find this out for myself with the German government.
TS: Uh huh.
LB: But I see now why they are so much fighting organized Scientology.
TS: Yeah
LB: Because they've lived through Hitler.
TS: Yes.
LB: They've lived through the whole Naziism, and seen it sweep and take over their country and they've seen the horrid camps and abuses and all that and all, and what, and in my opinion they rightly with an Scientology as organized by Miscavige right now is the beginning, the nucleus of that.
TS: Yeah. This –
LB: Of the Nazis, of the like, my God if these people got big enough, how many people would be broken up from their families,
TS: Yeah
LB: how many people who don't toe the line would be sent away to camps.
TS: Yeah
LB: You see, Miscavige gets very vicious even in his public promotion, there is a protion he's had I've been at seminars where he talks about the total obliteration of psychiatry and how he's going to see that that's done. At the same time, Hubbard has written that a person who has been on Psychiatric lines is not qualified to be in Scientology, so these people would just be sent to camps. Like OMG, can you imagine everybody they consider mentally ill is sent away to penal camps where, you know, whatever happens that would be very ... nasty to say the least!
TS: Yeah it sounds a whole lot like the Soviet gulags, reeducation camps, uh, punishment type camps, people are put through hard labor And given a minimum amount of ah, food just to sus- barely sustain them and indoctrinated in, uh, the dogma of uh, in that case the party, the Communist party but in this case uh, the Scientology organization and this-this forced abortions thing where they actually - some young owmen who, they get pregnant there at -- if they're at one of these bases or Sea Organization International Base or whatever, they're uh, they're not allowed to have children.
LB: Well one, one after another has come out and told that story, you know on the internet and otherwise. It's all over the place, it is so widespread. Um. You know, um... Let me tell you something. The way he gets away with this is not only by having a corporate structure that's very hard - I mean that would cost you millions to penetrate, right?
TS: Uh-huh.
LB: But he will scream, 'Oh! You're religious bigots if you're speaking out against me and I have my rights because this is ecclesiastical policy what we're doing, and we're entitled to our beliefs' and they'll position themselves with every decent religious organization that was ever prosecuted at any time in history and say that now Scientology is being prosecuted.
TS: Yeah.
LB: But think about it here. I really believe in religious freedom, but I've been around to Germany, to the West Coast, to the East Coast, uh, I've met a lot of the people that they consider religious bigots from the Religious Freedom Watch site and so far every single one of them has been a very decent person. Here is - here is an example of when he ways you cannot look into us because this is ecclesiastical religious policy and scripture and you're, you're a bigot if you do, well let's read just a little bit example of these scriptures. Here, for example if you don't mind I'll just take 2 minutes.
LB: Ah, One is a Hubbard Policy he wrote in 1955 called Dissemination of Material. Here's the quote:
"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." Another quote, another part of their ecclesiastical policy and scripture, Department of Government Affairs Policy of 15 August 1960, "Make enough threat or clamor to cause the enemy to quail. If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace. Don't ever defend, always attack." Um, and then he goes on with many, many of these, but I'd say probably the most famous one that was ever used against him which they said was cancelled and I'll show you how it's not was Fair Game. For what was called a lower condition, like if you're not doing well in life?
TS: Yeah
LB: Um, at one level you get what's called a suppressive person order, that's somebody they consider is out to destroy Scientology, or you're an SP, right?
TS: Right
And it's called Fair Game, and you may be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. may be tricked, sued lied to or destroyed. Now you will see Scientology representative, 'oh, that was cancelled, it was misunderstood,' and all that stuff. Well, let me read you the cancellation. Ah, Just a little over a year later, the policy called Cancellation of Fair Game came out and it said, um, the practice of declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public relations. This policy letter does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP. [laughter]
TS: So – so
LB: It's just saying you can still trick, sue, lie to or destroy people, you just can't call it that.
TS: In other words, he cancelled it as a policy but not as a practice.
LB: Correct. And he cancelled as using the name. And think of this, - I mean, if you go to the very first policy of what is meant by Fair game, as in what does it even mean, he says - get this - and he's putting a whole bunch of people in this classification, like thousands of these people were put into this classification by David Miscavige alone in 1982, right?
TS: Yeah
LB: But here it is. By Fair Game is meant: without rights for self, possessions or position. And no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a suppressive person or group during the period that person or group is Fair Game. And it goes on and on, but the thing is there are children -little children who want to leave Scientology and take off without approval and are declared suppressive persons so they're Fair Game. Uh, I mean, just this last week, this last week--last ten days alone, I have heard of two more people who have had their children write to them to disconnect from them saying that they're not allowed to talk with their parents anymore because their parents um, will either not do Scientology or who post in a forum that is critical of Scientology.
TS: Yeah.
LB: But I'm just saying there's thousands and thousands of people like this, um, that this applies to. It is a very inhumane organization, to say the least.
TS: Yeah. Well there is a profiling tactic that, that's used in the Scientology organization, too, and they have this information on the suppressive person, they list 12 characteristics. However when they label somebody and the labeling is done by anybody in the organization authorized to do it, it's done only by that person authorizing it, there is actually no reference made to the actual characteristics. And going a level deeper than that, Hubbard came up with these characteristics, uh, not by any, uh, scientific research or anything that was published and peer reviewed, it was basically his, uh, his idea. His whole- Those were his notions. And uh, there's actually if you look at the definition, the, well, the accepted definition in the field of psychology of a psychopath, it's ah, quite different from what in Scientology is called an anti-social personality or a suppressive person. Uh, I think that is an interesting point as well, but when they label somebody suppressive person it's because they - somebody in the organization, ah, wants to uh, derogatorily label that person and uh subject them to persecution.
LB: Yeah. Boy, that's, that's totally true.
TS: [laughter]
LB: I agree with you there. It's - it is incredibly sad, I mean it's unbelievable. I mean, I don't even want to - I'm not even going to bring up details of this but I've seen it right within my own family and I've seen it - I remember watching on TV, um, a former spokesman of the Office of Special Affairs on CNN saying 'oh, we are - we bring families together and we do not - disconnection is not a policy that we do' and like a week later [chuckles] my--one of my best friend's daughters disconnects from him. And I remember being called by a member of the Commodore's Messenger Organization and me being threatened if I didn't disown my daughter who had left staff without permission. And I - I told him words I cannot say on your radio program?
TS: Yes.
LB: It's just rampant and ongoing. It's certainly a scary world that they are building, too, but, but, the thing to me is they are - they are so obviously organized Scientology lying about the controls and the structure and their policies that I believe something can be done about it and the average person can do something about it and I mean, I have a, I have a few suggestions, and like for one thing, if you're a government, like for example we know in Belgium there the prosecution there is asking for approval to go ahead and prosecute on some very serious crimes based on a ten-year investigation.
TS: Yeah.
LB: And many other countries in Europe are looking into Crimes by organized Scientology, and my suggestion to them is, you know, whether it has to do with medical practice without a license or just false imprisonment, or all the many other myriad of horrible things that are done under the name of their ecclesiastical policy realize what they're really dealing with is an international foreign criminal organization that truly controls it. It's one thing...you're going to bust some poor guy in Belgium, or Germany, Hamburg, wherever for doing some abusive act to somebody else locally, is fair enough, but there's just going to be another guy doing that there next year if you don't get to the root of what is behind those abuses, and what's behind those abuses are organized Scientology and their interpretation of Hubbard policies to oppress and suppress people that are, you know, that they view to be enemies which is a very large part of the population. And, um, so one, I believe they should take their investigations beyond you know, just the local scene and realize that they've got to deal with the international organization. Two, I found out by a government representative in Germany, Ursula, actually a wonderful person over in Hamburg, that the state department is after, is on their case all the time about, you know, why are you harassing Scientology, what has Scientology done wrong, and the state department representatives have no idea what Scientology has done that's wrong, yet Ursula has to live with it.
TS: Yeah.
LB: She made a suggestion which I really support and that is, if everyone in the US for example, you could do this in any country, but if everyone in the US who has been abused and in particular, lets say you've had family ripped apart or children taken away from mothers or fathers or vice versa, whatever, by organized Scientology, write a one- page, simple letter to your congressional or senatorial representative letting them know this is what really is the case. Don't embellish it, don't lie, just tell the truth.
TS: Yeah.
LB: And through the senate and through the congress, they will often communicate to other departments like the IRS, the state department, the whatever, and, and that is how you can get information known and spread about in government circles in a way that will impinge and really the beauty of this is that people are just trying to get out the truth.
Now the other thing, which is absolutely amazing to me is I've been reading a lot of legal documents and court cases that Scientology has filed where they're using their using their IRS exemption recognition from 1993
TS: That's a 501(c)3
LB: Oh, that's a whole other five shows right there, Tom, just talking on that one.
TS: OK, Allright
LB: But they use that, for example, to say, "Oh, the IRS has done the most extensive investigation that they've ever done on anyone, and this proves that we're all beautiful and wonderful, and our corporate integrity is perfect, and all this stuff, it doesn't prove, they've used it in cases like Wollersheim's cases and that, where they've said the IRS has shown that our corporations are separate, and they don't run each other, and and in fact, it hasn't shown anything like that. For one thing, how they got their exemption, you know, is up to investigation, but, there's nothing in the rules of exemption about one corporation controlling another. If they were both considered exempt, for example, then they're exempt. It doesn't matter who controls it, so it doesn't prove who controls anything, whatever they got from the IRS.
Secondly, I think it proves the opposite, I mean, look at it. Within days of meeting with the IRS, they could put up a tax compliance committee made up of Miscavige and seven or eight or nine or ten top Sea Org members who could control all the auditing, financial representations for hundreds of organizations, maybe 120 or however many organizations. Well, wait a minute. Now they can also speak for the 120 organizations immediately? I mean, doesn't that tend to imply they do have a legal control over those organizations? So what's funny is, the very thing they used to try and say, to confuse people and say, "This proves that we're separate, and we're distinct, and there's no liability running up the lines from one corporation to another, actually it proves the opposite. It's mind-boggling how boldly and how blatantly they'll lie about something.
TS: Yeah, the thing is, most people assume good faith, and they, and they, particularly with a religious organization, they're going to assume that they have some kind of public interest at heart, or at least some good intention there, overall good intention, and, but what we're seeing here from this group is, there's a facade on the outside that uses celebrities and religious cloaking, but on the inside, it seems like, it seems to be running itself like an unscrupulous business.
LB: Well, yeah, and I would agree with that, and it's not only with respect to who they consider enemies, but it's their own people. I've seen it, and people have testified to this since then, since I've been in there, but they'll take every dime they can from all the local organizations they control, which includes Narconons, and education groups, Scientology churches and missions, and they'll take 90% of alltheir revenues if they could, and I know. I set up... Part of the corporate evolution was to set up trusts, like a films trust, to pull out five or ten percent of quote unquote churches' weekly revenues to pay for the films that they got. But, whatever it was, there was always some significance to...because Hubbard believed that the local organizations could not be trusted with not spending all the money, so international management had to take it from them. And when I presented the corporate solutions to Miscavige for approval, at a time period when he said he was not involved with it at all, and then in fact he did approve it, he had to be the final approval. When I presented it to him, most of his questions were on how could he continue to control it, how can we take mostly all of their money?
And, so, my point in saying this is that, it isn't just their quote unquote enemies that get mistreated or abused, it's their own people, because many of the people on their own staffs are getting what? Nothing, five dollars a week, thirty dollars a week, they have children. They can't clothe their children properly, they're not fed properly, not, they don't have a medical program, they have no retirement program, it's absolute hell. There are people who have been thirty years plus in their Sea Organization who right now are in penal camps and about to be released into the world with no health program, no retirement program, nothing. No other skills, and they could care less. So, I don't know anybody who isn't, ultimately as a public, who isn't ultimately hurt by these people.
TS: Yeah, this is actually, the staff members often have to work second jobs and, they, struggling to make ends meet there, because they're not getting paid very much, because the money is being evidently, as you say, siphoned off, and these people are really struggling just to get by. They work long hours, they're subject to rather unusual, let's just say, unusual penalties, to be polite, and it's just, it's kind of a bad deal. After they decide to leave, or in some case they have a contract if they're a regular staff member, they don't really have any savings, anything really put aside because you really can't, well, you have to work a second job just to pay your rent, usually they rent, usually they don't own a house, pay the rent and food and things like that, if they have kids, I mean it's just, it's quite a burden on somebody and there's nothing that they really get for it.
LB: Well, I agree, and it's just a sad thing, and that's why I'm saying, you know, the things that could be done, is if you've got a story, write it. Send it to your Congressional reps if you've been beaten by this guy, let me tell you something, I've been informed by a major reporter, that within two weeks of today, major national press is ready to release details on Miscavige's beatings of people. It's just two more people besides myself who'll come forward and go on the record. That's how close it is, there are one or two other persons who simply just tells the truth and lets their name be known can start letting the world know what this guy really is like and what he's really doing, and at no point are any lies and embellishments wanted or called for, it's that close, there's so much we could do right now.
There's the FactNet questionaire, there's some 140 questions asking many, many details of, that involve criminality and all that, involving organized Scientology and Miscavige. There's answering those things. There's testifying, I know that governments like Belgium and so forth, or I don't know, but I believe they're gonna need to speak with certain people who have information that'll help with the prosecution, and I think being willing to testify to help them is another good thing. If you've been beaten, file a complaint. That's it. Simple as that. There is no reason that a person has to stand there and be spit on, humiliated, beaten and have to just not take it. Some people aren't speaking up because they don't want to destroy what they consider to be their church. Well, I'm saying, if that's what their church is all about, it ought to be destroyed. But let's focus on, you don't have to take on, fight all of Scientology or be against every single principle of Scientology to point out that, you know, David Miscavige beat you. I'm just saying, tell the truth. If you have relevant information to the questionaires, if you have relevant information to testimony, if you can talk about the disconnections that happen, if you can be freely open with the press about this, education will come out, the light of truth will shine, and, you know, the problem will take care of itself. Anyway, that's my opinion, and I think the truth is what's needed and the truth is what can really make a big difference.
TS: Right, I mean when one person commits physical violence like that against another, these people should make a report to the sheriff or police department and see to it that the criminal investigation is carried out. It's just, these people should learn not to take that kind of abuse, that's just horrendous.
LB: That's right! And I'll also say as a message, in case any of these people ever hear this, but if you are in organized Scientology right now, let's say you're an OSA person and you're listening to this as you're about to report on me, and figure out how to fair game me, or sue me or whatever for Miscavige, let me tell you something. Take a look around the internet, and what I'm saying here, I'm willing to explain this to anyone, if any Scientology celebrities want to contact me, I'm willing to give them absolute details on everything that I've said here so that they can have the truth available to them, and I'm just telling you. Miscavige, he has the control there, he can beat up people, and seize the accounts and all that, because everyone's afraid of him. But he, in RTC, he truly can't control CSI. Corporately, it only takes two people to remove another director. Or two trustees to remove another trustee. You can stand up any time, if you're in organized Scientology, and simply throw him out. And, I'm just telling you, let's just start with the truth, and let a lot of it be known, and if that happens, you know, maybe some of our governments will start doing their duty and investigating some of the crimes allowed to go on within this organization.
TS: Larry, we're running out of time, I'd actually, I mean, I know you can talk for hours and hours more on this. We've been interviewing Larry Brennan, who was in a high position in the Church of Scientology for a number of years in the Guardian's Office, which is now known as the Office of Special Affairs. That's the arm of Scientology that handles intelligence, litigation, internal legal, public relations, any other functions there? The Guardian's Office used to handle finance, but...
LB: That's right. They also used to handle social coordination, which was like the Narconon, and the education programs like, Applied Scholastics I think, they're saying that's now done through ABLE, and not so much OSA. That's where some of those functions went.
TS: Okay. But that's actually Office of Special Affairs, which is OSA, basically administers ABLE, these social groups though, they oversee them.
LB: There isn't any local group that has the freedom to make their own decisions that's involved with the Scientology structure, and it all is ultimately centrally controlled. It's just that, one is going to have to pierce the corporate veils legally to make Miscavige and people like that responsible, but it's there and they control it, every one of them, doesn't matter which organization they are in, they're centrally controlled.
TS: Yeah. Larry, really appreciate your being on the program today, we'd like to have you back in the future, there's a number of other topics we can kind of branch off from. We've been talking about various abuses, personal abuses as well as different corporate abuses within the church. of Scientology itself, and these abuses actually go beyond what one would normally think of in terms of what a religion should do, and it appears that there's, the structure of this organization really is more on the ken of an unscrupulous business rather than a bona fide religion. This is something that we need to be aware of as citizens, something we need to really look at, a number of governments in Europe are actually taking action, really understand what's going on, don't approve of these abuses and are taking action. Hubbard did say, "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause," and he also used the term, "The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics." These statements are both euphamisms for the principle of the ends justifies the means, and that principle has been used throughout history to justify all sorts of atrocities. These atrocities need to stop. I'm Tom Smith, I'm the producer and host of The Edge, we'll be back again next week with another interesting guest.

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